|
Her Majesty Farah Pahlavi
Widow of the Shah of Iran; Author, An Enduring Love: My Life with the Shah, A Memoir
In conversation with Mary Bitterman, Director, Osher Lifelong Learning Institutes
Mary Bitterman:You have had a life which is unique. You have been a major player in world events over these last 45 years. But I wonder if you could speak about your growing up and the hopes and dreams that you had as a young girl.
Farah Pahlavi: In those years, we somehow had to have a life with the family, with friends, and also be so close to the people in the neighborhood, our neighbors, the vendors in the streets. And though we didn't have all the material things that so many children have today (maybe even then some children had), we were happy with what we had even a pair of new shoes or a new dress for Nawruz. In school we were happy; school was not a place we didn't want to go; we really liked the teachers, our friends. The future was bright, and we hoped that we would grow up and study. What we had in our minds in those days I think many young Iranians was to study, to do something and to serve our country. Of course, it was a period of our time which I call the Pahlavi Era. As a young girl, as women, we had the chance to go school to get educated, to do sports and to be free.
Bitterman: With the many duties that you fulfilled as empress your travels to every corner of the country promoting human services, advancing the arts, enhancing the status of women it seemed as though your schedule was every bit as busy as that of your husband. What were the accomplishments that meant the most to you as empress? What projects that you undertook, whether with the community of lepers, the advancement of the status of women, the repositioning of the arts there were so many things that you did but what would be some of the things in which you took the greatest pride?
Pahlavi: When my husband asked me to marry him, the first thing he said was, "As a queen, you will have duties towards your country and your compatriots." In those days, I couldn't imagine the scale. But it's really thanks to his support and his guidance, and also thanks to so many Iranian men and women who came to me and guided me; I learned from them. We learned about the problems and we found solutions, and we had the possibility to really realize some dreams. To tell you which one, because there are so many fields, each one of them important to my heart and it was not only me, there were so many other organizations, apart from the government, so many other non-governmental organizations by other groups in Iran the children, their education, what we had, the library for children, books for children.
You touched upon the lepers this is something which was very dear to my heart. Lepers in our society, even cured, cannot go back to their villages or to their cities as the WHO (World Health Organization) wants to reintegrate them into society. But my husband had given the association land, and we built a village for them which was better than all the other villages around. So the re-integration came the other way around.
What was very important to my heart, as you said, is culture. Iran is a country of culture and history, and I had a lot of admiration for our culture and for the preservation of it, for our people to know where they come from and what they have. We had a great museum, one big museum, that was the creation of several different museums: for carpet, ceramics, glass, pre-Islamic, Islamic. Two other museums: the beautiful Qajar museum (unfortunately, the current regime scattered the paintings, and they transformed this beautiful museum into the palace for the Guardians of the Revolution, as if there were no other building in town), also the modern art museum. It was not only these kind of museums but cultural centers also to encourage preservation of our old culture and at the same time promoting contemporary art and supporting contemporary artists.
Bitterman: Talk about the festival at Shiraz and the bringing together of both traditional cultural forms and the more contemporary.
Pahlavi: There have been many Iranian women before me who were trying as much as they could to find the right place for women in our society. But it was actually after 1938 with my husband's father, Reza Shah and then especially after 1963 what we call the White Revolution which gave women the right to vote and the right to get elected. With the help of so many women, there was changing of different laws for the status of women, such as the Family Protection Law, and so many laws were changed in favor of women, and they had equal rights as men.
After what has happened in our country unfortunately the last 25 years for Iranian women have been insulted, humiliated; and so many laws have gone back to the Middle Ages. Never in that period of 20 years did I feel that because I am a woman I could not do the many activities that I did.
Bitterman: One of the questions that's here is addressed to you as: Your Majesty, as a mother, as a grandmother now with an even brand new granddaughter, who is named after you, Princess Farah what advice would you give to women in Iran today?
Pahlavi: I am learning from them. They are so courageous, in spite of all the repression, all the brutality, they keep on fighting. They are an example for all of us. Also the women who have come out of Iran, they are forced into exile. They have really kept the family going, and I'm very proud of them. What to tell them is that we are not forgetting them, not only the women but the young people and all the Iranians. We try to, whenever we can, make their voice listened to the world: that they want their deserved place in this society.
Bitterman: When we speak about the long history and the culture of your extraordinary country, one is reminded of the commemoration of the 2,500-year anniversary of the founding of the Persian Empire by Cyrus the Great. This commemoration took place at Persepolis in 1971. As you well know, there are some who have criticized the entire event as extravagant or vain. But it seemed to me that you looked at this more as an essential step in nation building. I want you to comment on it, because that was such a hugely covered event by the international media.
Pahlavi: The celebration of the 25th century of Iranian history we were celebrating our history, our past, our culture. Unfortunately in the '70s, there were a lot of attacks from different opposition groups or from different people outside of Iran, vilifying the regime, vilifying my husband. There were details of the event which threw shade on the real thing which was, for instance, the food or the foreign people who came to help, because in Iran we couldn't have it all Iranian. We should have waited some more years to do it completely Iranian. But people forgot about all the positive sides of the celebration, because all the money spent was on things that stayed roads, hotels, schools and in all the world, there were committees created to make the Iranian culture known. There were books published, exhibitions of art, concerts; we had all the leaders of the world coming
Bitterman: The photographs are extraordinary, with every head of state in the world.
Pahlavi: When you compare, which is the leader who has gone to visit Iran in the last 25 years?
Bitterman: The 1960s and the early 1970s were very important, progressive, very heady times. There was a strong price for oil, progress evident on so many fronts, the development of infrastructure and social economic educational gains. When did you begin to first sense that era of good feeling was passing?
Pahlavi: It was really in the two years before what happened. Not one day has passed in the past 25 years that we don't sit around and think of what happened, why did it happen, what could we have done, what went wrong? When you think back, Iran was a country with wealth which it has today; also human wealth which it has also today, but the right people are not in the right places. It was a country which was going forward, developing, progressing. It was a place where there was stability;
we were allies of the West, because it was in the interest of Iran; at the same time, we had good relations with the Eastern Bloc then and good relations with all our neighbors. Look what has happened to our country and that part of the world after the Islamic Revolution.
Of course, we have to put ourselves in the context of that period, because we had always the rivalry of the superpowers over Iran, because Iran is rich, Iran is a jewel strategically, it's in a very important location. And we had our big neighbor, the Soviet Union, which always had a vision to reach the warm waters of the Persian Gulf. And, of course, we had groups of opposition, which were thinking that the ideal system is the Communist system of Soviet Union or China. Also, slowly, unfortunately, the movement of religious fundamentalism because they were against social changes in society: the land reform, which made many landowners unhappy, and also the emancipation of women and their education and freedom. The religious fundamentalists were very unhappy, and my husband always wanted the country to develop, progress, go towards modernity and solve the problem of illiteracy and slowly open up for political participation. In our countries we cannot become overnight democracies; other countries have decades behind them. We say a dictation which is not written has no fault.
Of course, when you put one foot forward there are problems which arise. But, frankly, I don't think the problems were in a stage that needed such a horrible revolution. There were shortcomings, of course; there were some mistakes, but the mistakes belonged to both sides. To us, who didn't see the problems coming, or didn't address them well or handle them well, and to those groups who were hoping for a more free society, more democratic, who went with the religious leader, thinking that they would bring them paradise and then they opened the door to hell. From outside of Iran there were so many groups who gave the religious leader as an example of triumph of spirit over material, that if he went back to Iran it would be an example for the Middle East. Many of them, his supporters, were in the United States and in Europe and giving an image that he is a religious man, that he will go on in his religious city; he believes in women's rights, he believes in democracy. All that unfortunately got together to create such a catastrophe with a mythological dimension.
With hindsight, I believe that if the political participation of people had started sooner, in the early '70s, maybe this would not have happened. I don't think that the problems were at such a level and I believed so much in what was done in Iran, and the base of a just society was set; we could have argued, we could have discussed.
I must say that after the price of the oil rose in the early '70s, we had a big campaign against Iran from outside. I wanted to add this because this comes, of course, with the questions of the satisfaction of people. I know there were a lot of stories about the police, the Savak, the students, the pressure that was too much exaggerated by the opposition groups, which were very well organized. Any police of any country is for the security and stability of that country, and unfortunately some of them commit excesses, which is not defendable and it's regrettable. I always say that if the Savak was as strong as they said, these people who are ruling Iran today were all known by Savak.
Bitterman: During all of these times and then after, when you and the Shah left Iran, you had close relations with many of the leaders of the Middle East: people like Anwar Sadat, King Hussein of Jordan, King Hassan of Morocco. I was wondering if you could just say a few comments about each of them and how you see the leadership in the Middle East today.
Pahlavi: Our relations with these three countries you mention, very good relations, very friendly relations in any field economic, political, cultural and besides that, the friendship which existed between my husband and the late President Sadat, or King Hussein or King Hassan; besides the political relation they were very close friends, and their vision of the Middle East and what they wanted for progress and development in that part of the world and also especially peace. We had known them, especially the late King Hussein and King Hassan; we had been many times to their countries besides official visits, also private visits. Their children came to see us; I went many times to Jordan to visit them. So we were very close, and history showed that with those leaders present in those days, the situation of the Middle East was better than it is today. But I have a lot of hope in the young generation that has followed King Hussein: for King Abdullah and Kind Mohammed of Morocco, and also, of course, Egypt, with an actual president. I believe these countries are important, like so many other countries in the Middle East, and I hope with the help of the rest of the world they would reach the solution to have a stable, peaceful and democratic Middle East.
Bitterman: Given your constructive influence, might it not have been possible when the Shah left Iran for you to have remained and been a focus of reorganization?
Pahlavi: If you put yourself in the context of that period, it was such a mass hysteria. Everybody was waiting for change and hoping that the religious leader would come and, as I said, bring all they dreamt about. I had asked my husband to stay behind, not to be active in anything but to remain there as a symbol of what he was. But now I think it wouldn't have served anything. People wanted to go their way, anyway.
Bitterman: The times were emotional beyond belief, obviously not just in Iran, but in many different parts of the world, with the coverage of the media. I was telling Her Majesty when we spoke on the telephone a couple of days ago that, ironically, at the same time you were leaving Iran, I was director of the Voice of America in the Carter administration. Things were very difficult when the hostages were taken. The American people didn't know quite how to respond to American diplomats being taken hostage, and the coverage by the media was incredibly sensational in every country.
You speak with such optimism about the future. It seems so very Persian the way you talk about the light coming out of the darkness. Many of the questions that have been raised by our wonderful audience are really questions, variations, on the theme of: What leads you to be optimistic? What steps do you think, if they were taken, would contribute to improved conditions in Iran? I think everyone is just so eager to have your thoughts about this, and you obviously think about this, as you counsel your son and work with the Iranian people all over the world.
Pahlavi: I must first say that it's my son who is counseling me, frankly. But, as I say all the time, light will overcome the darkness. I don't want the evil and all the negative things of life to destroy me. Life is a struggle for all of us; we can lose our land, we can lose our home, we can lose our position, our loved ones, but we shouldn't lose our dignity, we shouldn't lose hope, because otherwise we are losing to the evil. And for me, the Islamic Republic is evil.
My optimism is not just because I hope so or I dream. Iran is a country of culture which has given to the world so much in philosophy, in science, in literature. It's a country of a thousand and one poems of love. It has given so much. Examples of what we call the first human rights charter started with Cyrus the Great. I believe in the Iranian people, because they have gone through so many things in their history, and they always came out of it, and they kept their identity, they kept their language, they kept their beliefs. The Iranian people have tasted this regime; they are beyond what the world wants to call moderates or reformers and have shown, lately, in their so-called election that the majority of Iranian people want change. They want freedom, they want democracy and they want a separation of religion and government. Iran is important for the rest of the world; it's not only for Iranians, and I hope that the world will support this voice of freedom of Iranian people, because it's to the benefit of the rest of the free world and also the Middle East.
Bitterman: How old were you when you were married?
Pahlavi: When I met the Shah then I was 20; when I got married, 21.
Bitterman: Do you have bodyguards?
Pahlavi: Today I have a lot. Bodyguards are very important, but I think I have guardian angels, too.
Bitterman: Do you still enjoy tennis?
Pahlavi: Sport has helped me a lot during this difficult period to keep my mental and physical state healthy. But what I want to ay about sport and tennis: I played my best tennis almost at the age of 50, so never give up.
Bitterman: There are many questions related to the great sadness that you experienced in leaving Iran, the illness of your husband, the peregrinations from one country to another. Many of these questions relate to your treatment by the international community. How do you find that the international community has treated you in these more recent years? Have people who were difficult become less difficult?
Pahlavi: Yes, of course. In those days, humanly, it was very difficult. We were away from our children, my husband was sick, and we were hearing so much about what was happening to the people who had served Iran, their assassination, and so many of our compatriots were gone outside of Iran and suffered so much. Humanly, it was very difficult, but also at the same time I could understand that a country's politics are for their national interest. Now things have changed and I can go to most of the countries; there is no problem. But even in those days, if some of the world leaders who had been our friends could not do politically anything for us, they always kept in touch and asked about our situation, and we were very touched. Besides that, so many simple Iranians or even foreigners wrote to us and gave us signs of affection sympathy and friendship. I really thanked them, because even one letter in those days meant a lot to us. So, if we didn't have the presidential palaces or the royal palaces, we had many of the streets.
Bitterman: On your web site, there are so many lovely photographs of you and your family but things that go beyond the period after your husband's death. There are some wonderful photographs of you on an occasion with Mrs. Sadat and Mrs. Rabin and you as three women contributing to peace. Do you find that you are involved in many international meetings or conferences pointing to the position of women or what women might do to contribute to greater peace throughout the world?
Pahlavi: Not really in international conferences or places, but each time I have occasion and I can speak with the media or anywhere I am, of course, I speak about the subject. That gathering was women who were next to the men who worked for peace.
Bitterman: There is currently a debate in France over whether or not the state can prohibit women from wearing headdress in public places.
Pahlavi: I've been asked this question many times in France. At this point of my life, having seen what has happened and is happening in my country, when I see that kind of uniform headdress which is not the traditional headdress of different Muslim countries I have an emotional reaction. It's not simply the headdress but the laws which come afterwards. Somebody asked me whether I am for free choice. I am; but in my country there is no free choice. I'm not going to make any comments about those who wear these uniforms, which for me obviously remind me of an image I don't want to see.
Bitterman: Questions here as to the location of the Peacock Throne.
Pahlavi: The real Peacock Throne doesn't exist anymore. Nobody knows what happened to it. But I saw the replica in India in New Delhi. What is in Iran, it's not the Peacock Throne but it has been named Peacock Throne by the media for all these years.
Bitterman: How difficult is it to go, to transition from being a queen and empress to being
Pahlavi: free at last. I said once to my husband, I'm an adaptable person. I'm always grateful to God for whatever positive one can have in life, and I take from them all the energies for the days that I feel down and depressed. But I've always remained myself, and although in the position as a queen I was able to do so many things life has changed but I must say that I'm happy to have this freedom to go around, to go on the sidewalks, sit in a cafι and have a coffee, and then to be like everybody. I consider everything in life as an experience of life. And some part of my life which sometimes could have been hurting is also an experience, and I look at it with some sense of humor.
Bitterman: Would you say a few words about your children?
Pahlavi: My son, who's a really great support to me and thank God, he has a sense of duty, at the same time a sense of humanity, which helps him during the difficult times and helps me. Politically he's been active, and he's been fighting for these last 24 years with so many Iranians of differing political opinions, for freedom and democracy in Iran. What he says is that if one day, hopefully, the Iranian people are free by a referendum to choose their system of government, whether a constitutional monarchy or any sort of democratic government, he's ready to serve his country. My eldest daughter has studied child psychology, and for a while she went into the school of social work. For the moment, she's not working, but she's very attached to our country, and she just hopes that one day she could go back to her roots. My youngest son is writing a thesis about ancient Iranian history, and he's also a joy in my life. He has really a sense of being Iranian and also a lot of sense of humor, which helps the whole family.
Bitterman: We all know the very sad tragedy of your youngest daughter. Your granddaughters; if you'll just say a word about them.
Pahlavi: There are three of them. The eldest is almost 12, then 11, then the little one, who's a month and a half, and they're really a great joy in my life. They have wonderful, interesting questions to ask me. What they say which makes me happy; they think I am cool.
Bitterman: That's probably what every grandmother in the world would like to be to be considered very, very cool. There is also a set of photographs on your web site about going to wonderful exhibitions of Persian art at the Louvre and showing the great artifacts to your granddaughters and them asking you when will you take them so they can see these things on site with their own eyes.
Pahlavi: I hope so. As we say, Inshallah.
Bitterman: Do you think that there are situations that play now toward greater discontent which may lead to greater democratization? Do you have any sense of certain things which are taking place which you feel might lead Iran into a certain direction over these next 15 years?
Pahlavi: I don't want to predict, because one cannot know, but from what I hear from the Iranian insiders, I have said that the majority of them are unhappy. They want change, because when you see the state of the economy a country which was going forward . To just give you an example, if one dollar was 70 rials 25 years ago; today it is 8,000 rials. The per capita income that was $2,500 25 years ago, now is around $1,000 and maybe less. And also the situation of young people who want freedom, who want the chance to work, to own a house, to be free like all the people in the world; so many young people are addicted, because they have no hope. The condition of women and so many young girls, who unfortunately, because of poverty, are forced to go into prostitution; and so many children beggars in the street. Also the respect of Iran in the family of nations, the environment, the corruption which exists all that is making the Iranian people very unhappy. But I hope, again, with the effort of all Iranians and also with the support of the free world to support these freedom-loving people of Iran, Iran will gain its freedom and especially keep its territorial integrity. But we just cannot hope and dream, but we have to, all of us, have our part in trying to help in that direction.
Bitterman: When you and your husband first came to the United States, when he was ill, for medical treatment, and then left and went back to Egypt, you decided then later to be here with your children. In these 25 years that you've been here, do you feel comfortable in the United States? Can you put aside some of the hurt that you inevitably felt when your husband was so ill and there were political forces that might not have seemed as accepting of your sanctuary?
Pahlavi: Yes, because it was a period; it was politics of that period, because for the people and for the country it's not the same thing. I see really many kindness when people know me, and the possibility this country offers, the beauty of it; your country, to have given refuge and asylum to so many Iranians: they have freedom, and they have opportunity. The Iranian community is really a plus for America, because they are among the highest percentage in graduate degrees and highest among the most educated, and economically they bring a lot to the United States. They have been successful in so many different fields, whether science, business or art and film.
Bitterman: You've been so involved with women's organizations and been such a model for women and young girls. How do you see the situation of women in this country?
Pahlavi: I think you're lucky. Everything is relative. There are so many wonderful, hard-working Americans in every field. But you have worked hard for it. You didn't take it for granted, and I wish you all a lot of success. And don't forget your Iranian sisters.
