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Hanan Mikhail-Ashrawi
Ph.D., Arab League Commissioner of Information; Secretary General, The Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and Democracy; Member, Palestinian Legislative Council
In conversation with Elizabeth Farnsworth, PBS "NewsHour" Correspondent
Answers to Written Questions from the Floor:
Elizabeth Farnsworth: Why are you here in the United States? Is something happening under the surface that we should know about in this peace process?
Hanan Mikhail-Ashrawi: I always believe in full transparency. I'm here for a variety of reasons. Part of the reason is to attend and participate in these events. I've had meetings with the State Department officials. We are trying very hard to engage in a new strategic dialogue with the U.S. to exchange ideas openly and candidly – not just to deal with security issues and immediate issues, but to gain a handle on reality and the deteriorating conditions in our part of the world.
Farnsworth: In Palestine, how do you get around? How dangerous is it? Are you stopped at the same barricades and stops as everybody else in the West Bank?
Ashrawi: It's very difficult to speak about my personal life. I live in Ram Allah. I have an address in Jerusalem as well. I was elected in Jerusalem and my office is there. I have to go through two, sometimes three checkpoints to get to my office. Ram Allah is under siege. Since I live in an area where there are lots of government offices and the president's headquarters, we regularly hear the sounds of bombings and shelling. We rarely have a full night's sleep. It's a very dangerous neighborhood. You cannot walk outside your house and assume that you will get to where you're going. You could get killed or arrested. Some of my friends have been shot. One woman was shot going shopping with her children – she was killed and her daughter injured.
There is senseless, gratuitous death and destruction going on. For me to get to my office, we can drive the car, but we are stopped at every checkpoint, and then you have to leave your car and walk. You walk through dirt and side roads, but you also walk under the eyes of the Israeli soldiers, and quite often there is shooting and tear gas, people getting beaten up. Quite often I've had to duck and walk through mists and clouds of tear gas and flying bullets. A drive that usually takes ten or fifteen minutes now takes us hours. To get to the airport, you have to get off before the first checkpoint, carry your luggage, and have a car waiting for you after the checkpoint. Now, with winter coming in and with the rain, mud, and dirt, it's going to be even more difficult. There's nothing you can take for granted, whether it's sleeping in bed calmly, having one quiet night, going to work, or ensuring that you won't get stopped, insulted, and humiliated by any 18 year-old soldier who feels that he has a God-given right to dictate the course of your life.
Farnsworth: How do you explain the Palestinian people dancing in the streets after the horrific tragedy at the World Trade Center?
Ashrawi: I'm glad you asked this question, because this really has to be explained, once and for all. Right after the tragedy of September 11, there were Palestinians, a handful, who reacted initially without knowing the full impact of what actually had happened. Palestinians are a people who are wounded, bruised, traumatized, and many people told me that those people who reacted that way after the attacks didn't understand the full impact. They acted in ignorance. The initial reaction was that now maybe the U.S. would understand what it means to be vulnerable and to live in fear. I don't condone these things, and these people were a very distinct minority.
Unfortunately, once that film was taken, that was used to encapsulate the entire Palestinian reality. The vast majority of Palestinians expressed support, solidarity, grief, and anguish. I know people who marched to the American Consulate everyday and laid wreaths. I know people who participated in candlelight vigils, and all our schoolchildren had moments of mourning and remembrance every day. Many people called and asked whether they could donate blood. There was a sharing of sorrow from one traumatized people to another, but that expression of common humanity was not allowed to come through. I asked many agencies and networks why they didn't show the real side, the majority of what the Palestinians were thinking and doing. I asked them why they didn't talk to Palestinians instead of repeatedly showing the same film clip. I was told by some that it wasn't dramatic enough, that they were looking for something newsworthy, and that having a handful of Palestinians doing this was dramatic, regardless of the fact that this distorted our reality, humanity, and it misrepresented Palestinians. Unfortunately, this isn't new. Many of you don't know much about Palestinians – our humanity, our culture, our history. We have always been perceived through the eyes of others, and our narrative has always been subject to distortion. I think it is time that we tried to break through and address each other directly and with honesty.
Farnsworth: As a Palestinian Christian, do you believe that the Islamic extremist groups committing terrorism against Israeli civilians will destroy your own hopes for a homeland for all Palestinians?
Ashrawi: Terrorism of all kinds is destructive, regardless of who commits that act, and it must not be condoned or justified in any way, shape or form. Every human life is valuable, and average citizens are much more vulnerable in this lethal conflict. No, I don't think that they will destroy the chances. The military wings are the minority, and right now we are working on a public opinion that would not condone any type of violence against civilians. The fact that Palestinian civilians have been targeted by Israel, because Israel adopted a policy of assassinations, does not mean that we should adopt the same measures that we condemn when being carried out against us. Ours is a just cause. It's a cause that is human, moral, and legal, and can be solved. Ours is not a cause that should be hijacked by extremists, nor should it be used to rationalize or condone any kind of crime or terrorism. On the contrary, we maintain that we want to build a state that is independent, democratic, and certainly has nothing to do with the Osama bin Ladens of this world or the Talibans. Our agenda is entirely antithetical to that agenda.
Farnsworth: Are you uncomfortable that Osama bin Laden is in some ways claiming to be speaking on behalf of or at least fighting for Palestinians?
Ashrawi: This isn't the first time that people have tried to latch onto the Palestinian cause in order to hijack it, exploit it for their own ends, or to try to borrow our constituency and support. We have genuine support and sympathy from the Arab and Islamic world, and throughout the world from people of conscience, goodwill, and morality. We have a message for bin Laden and everybody else: Our cause is not up for grabs, and you do not have the right to exploit it or use it to justify these horrific actions. We're not uncomfortable; we're angry, and we're angry because we feel that we have been victims all our lives. We certainly do not condone the victimization of others.
Farnsworth: You – and one audience member notes, Edward Said as well – are articulate advocates for the Palestinian cause, in terms of human rights and legal norms. But on the street, isn't the problem with Israel more visceral and more one of religion?
Ashrawi: No, it is not. In the same way I do not believe this confrontation now is a war among civilizations or between religions, I don't think our conflict is a religious conflict. I don't have multiple messages. I say the same things at home that I say here. I have a consistent message, in English and Arabic. Our message is one of humanity, democracy, and human rights, and we want to build our state on those principles. To do that we need to end the occupation. We have our own internal problems; we've made many mistakes, and the authority has made serious mistakes in terms of accountability, rule of law, and human rights. Sometimes it is being forced to demonstrate it can deliver to the Israelis and Americans by violating our own rights internally.
Edward doesn't live at home; he lives in Washington, but he presents an intellectual voice, and he has his own interpretation of reality. I was elected at home; I have a constituency, and I know that I work within the majority of Palestinian, democratic forces. We will not be made subject to the simplistic polarization of a corrupt, inept national regime, as opposed to Islamic extremism. There is a vast majority of democratic forces and voices in Palestine and the Arab world who need to be empowered and heard to prevent repeating the mistakes of other Arab countries and to ensure that we have a genuine, active participancy.
Farnsworth: Please differentiate between terrorism and freedom fighting. Taking it to the next step, what can be done to control Hamas and Jihad terrorist organizations?
Ashrawi: Of course we can differentiate between terrorism and freedom fighting. I have always been committed to peaceful resistance, and I've tried to continue and maintain peaceful resistance and popular protest but, unfortunately, we're always met with violence. Being shot at, beaten up, and detained, is part of my life under occupation. Freedom fighters are those who resist occupation. We, like all people under occupation, have the right to resist and have always maintained that you can resist on your own land. You resist the army, you resist the settlers, but you do not go into other people's land to resist. If you've accepted the two-state solution, it means you've accepted Israel, and therefore you do not do to them what they have done to us. We do not target their civilians.
Resistance is resistance to occupation. That, to me, is freedom fighters. The problem is that the world has begun – probably taking its cue from the Israeli spin machine which is suddenly very professional and glib and pervasive – to use convenient labels for the Palestinians. When they say "Palestinian," they immediately say "terrorist." We've had many distorting and dehumanizing labels, but the Irish are not called terrorists. People in Europe who fought and resisted occupation, whether French or Belgian, were not called terrorists. Somehow, we are being deprived of our very human and legal right to resist occupation and oppression. We are the only people in the world who are asked to guarantee the safety of their occupiers, regardless of what they do to us.
I do not consider Hamas and Jihad terrorist organizations. I disagree with them on the issues of social justice and on their agendas, but we've always had ongoing dialogues and debates. I do not agree with the military agenda and, therefore, I do not have anything in common with the military wings of Hamas and Jihad. As part of our political pluralism, I will engage with their political wings, and I will discuss and have a dialogue. If we are talking to the Israelis through an ongoing dialogue, I don't see why we shouldn't have political pluralism and a dialogue internally, within Palestine. I also don't believe that people should pull out convenient labels and label them as terrorists. The best way to deal with pluralism is to set up an inclusive political system, to continue the discussion, to give them a stake in the process and, of course, to dry up any support for violence in our region. To do that, you need to show that the alternative works. You need to show that peaceful means work. You need to show that there is a partner for a dialogue and negotiations.
The more Israel escalates, the more Israel uses ideological language and violence, the more it devalues Palestinian lives, the more it encourages actions on the other side that would encourage extremism and violence. All types of fundamentalist language, whether it is Christian, Muslim, or Jewish, are certainly not conducive to peace and inclusiveness. We have to combat it wherever it is. You combat it not by killing everyone who disagrees with you. Otherwise, I think Israel would have to imprison more than half its population. We must combat it by engaging in a serious dialogue, protecting political pluralism and making violence self-defeating and unacceptable.
Farnsworth: Given current conditions, do you believe that those groups cannot be controlled?
Ashrawi: You cannot control them by massive arrests. To me, the term "control" could be misleading, because right now there is pressure to suspend due process, to try to arrest people on the basis of their political beliefs, without even evidence. When the authorities are told that you have to arrest everybody who is Hamas, it means that Palestine is not allowed any kind of pluralism or rule of law. Anybody who has violated the law has to be held accountable in accordance with the law, but you cannot go on a rampage and arrest everybody because they hold beliefs that differ from ours. You can neutralize the violent tendencies, robbing them of their constituency and legitimacy, by providing a serious and effective alternative. I see no problems with accountability when people break the law. That should be done consistently and with due process. But, I don't see that the authority has to violate its own people's rights and become a surrogate occupation or serve as Israel's military and security representative against the Palestinian people.
Now, if they want us to arrest people against whom they have evidence, let them show us the evidence, in the same way that we gave them a long list of settlers and death squads and people who have killed many Palestinians in cold blood, and yet they are freed. Those who are tried end up ultimately being released. They get preferential treatment in their five-star prisons, as we say, and then they quickly get released. So, we need to see accountability on both sides. It's up to the more powerful; it's up to the occupier to hold its army accountable and to curb its settler vigilantes. Then, we will see that there is a genuine rule of law, that you do not only punish Palestinians while Israel can continue its behavior, particularly among its own extremist factions.
Farnsworth: Why don't you form your own political party?
Ashrawi: Right now the situation is not peaceful. You cannot get to villages, to your own constituents. Parties are not formed by a decree or a decision from above. You have to work in your own community and grassroots, and you have to go through the siege and blockade and get to people. You also have to have a clear message and vision, and you have to bring together a critical mass of people who think alike, and you have to revive the spirit of volunteerism and collectivism. It's very difficult. For years under occupation, the PLO was the sole legitimate representative. Challenging the PLO was treason to Palestinians. Now, in the transition and nation-building process, it's a democratic duty to challenge and provide alternatives and to be able to provide agendas and political programs that will provide for a vibrant and active democracy. I think, ultimately, there will be new political parties. All of our efforts have been suspended in the last year or so because of the mass onslaughts. People now are in survival mode.
There is no one who is going to meet to discuss a political party, and we cannot get anywhere anyway. We have a group of people who are trying to articulate a new and public agenda. We have tremendous support, but we need some quiet and safety to be able to proceed. It's not going to happen quickly, and it's not going to happen easily, but I'm sure that it will happen. Remember, we were telling the factions to transform themselves into political parties, and they said that we were still in a state of national liberation struggle. Ultimately, they were proven right and we were proven wrong. They came out publicly, and now they are arrested and assassinated, and their normal political life could not be sustained. Many of them went back underground. What we need is some safety, some normalcy in our lives to be able to generate more political activity and pluralism.
Farnsworth: How can we live under the conditions of terrorism that we're living under now? What are your thoughts on California's current unease? Guardsmen are on our bridges, and people are staying home from work. What does the threat of terrorism do to people's mindset?
Ashrawi: When you live with fear and insecurity and a sense of vulnerability, you have to develop defense mechanisms, not by being insensitive, but by not allowing the threat to paralyze you. You cannot internalize it, and you cannot translate it into hatred and a visceral drive for revenge. You cannot use your own pain to justify inflicting pain on others. Fear of the unknown can be debilitating. It seems to me that the only way to confront that is to go about confidently. If you end up succumbing to fear, suspicion, or hostility, ultimately it's the person who feels those things who pays the price. It will lead to internal fragmentation and a personal sense of disorientation. You've lived with many insecurities and fears, whether crossing the street or taking a plane, and you've managed to continue. Because you're not used to this, you feel that life has to change, but it doesn't have to change at all. With the right attitude and with the right collective effort, this fear will not only subside but will not be allowed to translate itself into another horrific reality. I've seen the same spirit in the U.S. and the willingness to endure that I've seen in Palestine. The hardest thing for any terrorist or oppressor is to break the spirit of the victims.
Farnsworth: Pick the two most important things that must happen right now for there to be peace between your people and the Israelis.
Ashrawi: We need to ensure that the Israeli army immediately withdraws from our towns and cities, lifts the siege, stops the shelling and bombing, and stops the destruction of homes and land. I know that is not going to happen, but at least stop the military attacks. That is absolutely essential. Simultaneously, we have to start immediate, substantive, serious negotiations with third-party intervention. The asymmetry of power does not produce serious and balanced negotiations between occupier and occupied. We need the U.S. We need an active, even-handed, but decisive role by the U.S., and I think the U.S. needs its European allies. It needs the UN and it needs its Arab allies in order to bring about a comprehensive, just and permanent peace.
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